All the Wrong Advice: A Listener Episode
Listen to full episode :
In this episode of the Switching Two podcast, Jess and Heather dive into the realities of working in production, sharing personal stories and listener advice for the prompt “What’s a piece of advice you were given in your career that ended up being totally wrong for you?” They discuss the importance of knowing your fit in the industry, the value of networking, and the emotional challenges that come with production work. The conversation also touches on the significance of kindness in the workplace, the balance between confidence and preparation, and the evolving landscape of career advice.
Takeaways
Navigating production challenges often involves emotional adjustments.
Exploring new opportunities can lead to unexpected outcomes.
Knowing your fit in the industry is crucial for career satisfaction.
Listener advice highlights the importance of discerning what works for you.
Networking and relationships are key to career advancement.
Learning to say no can be just as important as saying yes.
Education should complement real-world experience for career growth.
Kindness in the workplace can lead to better collaboration and opportunities.
Prioritizing your health and well-being is essential in a demanding industry.
Confidence and preparation are both necessary for success.
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Jess (00:01)
Just for Heather, can you switch to two?
Heather (00:03)
Go for Heather.
Switching. Hey, I'm Heather. We're two multi-hyphenate creatives figuring it out in real time.
Jess (00:09)
and I'm Jess.
from on set and in the studio to deadlines, pivots, side hustles, and starting over.
Heather (00:20)
We talk about the messy, brilliant, behind-the-scenes reality of working in production, broadcast content, and everything in between.
Jess (00:27)
Tune in for fresh tea, hot takes, industry guests, and the occasional chaos.
Heather (00:33)
This is Switching Two, the side channel for creative conversations. All right, we're on to.
Jess (00:37)
We're glad you're here.
Hi Heather.
Heather (00:43)
Hi Jess.
Jess (00:45)
How's it going?
Heather (00:46)
It's going. I'm so excited to be here with you today. I just love getting to chat with you on the pod.
Jess (00:53)
I love getting to chat with you on the pod or otherwise. I'm always excited to share stories with you about my life and things happening and tea. Tea is great.
Heather (00:56)
or otherwise, just in general.
Yes. I hear you have some
tea for me today. You said, Heather, I have some things to tell you on the podcast. You know, for listeners, so they know sometimes we wait to talk about things until we're here. And...
Jess (01:17)
Yeah, because
I want Heather's raw reaction to be like, I want everyone to experience that. Like I want everyone to like, we do, because you'd be surprised we're on a lot of calls together for various things. So it's like, I told Heather, was like, have to tell you something, but I can't tell you something until we record it. So here we are. So.
Heather (01:26)
It's very hard for us you guys, we do it for you.
We are. Yes.
Gosh. So what's been going on? What have you been working on lately?
Jess (01:45)
I've been working on a lot. We've been doing some projects with you. We've been working on getting the podcast going and doing episodes and everything. It's been amazing. I've been kind of exploring some different projects that I want to do when I'm on my downtime and stuff. Been preparing for some projects coming up. What about you? What are you up to?
Heather (01:55)
Bye, guys.
Yeah, I've been, feels like a really busy time. Things are happening, which is exciting. I feel like lots of things are brewing, which is cool and usually typical for this time as we start to go into Q4. But yeah, it was crazy. I recently went up to the Bay Area. I flew up to San Francisco for a commercial corporate shoot there that I was.
producing and we land the team. We're there getting some of gear from baggage claim and I get a text from the client that the shoot is cancelled. ⁓
Jess (02:48)
I just want to start by saying
that you told me you were like, we're gonna we're gonna fly to to San Fran and back in the same day. Just to just I just want to start with that.
Heather (02:57)
in the same day.
Yeah, I mean, it's just, think people would be crazy. They would be like, what? And that to us was just, yeah, that's fine. It's a normal day. Yeah. So that was, we're up there at baggage claim. Well, so I had gotten an idea, an inclination that maybe something was not, I don't know, moving forward, you're dealing with a lot of the client and...
Jess (03:08)
Mm.
So you're up there, you're at baggage claim.
Heather (03:23)
the agency and a lot of different groups of people in different time zones. So sometimes things take a little bit longer to make their way down the chain, right? And so before we take off, thought, hmm, this is interesting communication. But OK, that's fine. They said proceed, get on, move forward. OK, no problem. Yeah, and then we land and they thought, well, maybe we'll try to do some other content or repurpose it. And then they just said, no, it's.
It's okay. So, you know, had an Uber waiting. I've got some of our local team there with gear like ready, almost there to load in and we're pulling gear cases off the baggage claim belt. you know, there's so then as a there's a lot to adjust. But I think nobody talks about like the emotional adjustment of that, because that was also a last minute shoot where it was, you know, this was a Monday morning.
Jess (04:16)
Yeah.
Heather (04:16)
The shoot
was probably locked in the Thursday before, Friday, like Thursday, Friday before. So, you know, nobody really talks about this, I think, as much as they should. And Jess, I know you've dealt with this a lot too with productions we've been on. Things change. it's, you know, even if you cancellation policy, like people are able to be compensated and all that, there's still the emotional... Like we were ready to film something really cool that day and we didn't get to, so it's just kind of...
Jess (04:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather (04:44)
adjusting from that.
Jess (04:46)
There's a lot of big feelings with that, I
think. And then your logistic brain, you put the feelings in the box, whether that's healthy or not, and you're like, I'm gonna deal with this later, I need to logistically handle this. This is...
Heather (04:54)
Yes, there's a lot.
Yeah, so that was just one day of a crazy week that I think was, was it last week? I don't even know when this, I think this was, this was last week. Yeah, so it's kind of crazy, but yeah. So what, what, tell me your story. I want to know your, your thing. What's up?
Jess (05:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. This was last week.
Wow. yeah, I almost forgot. So
I had it on the calendar to talk to a potential new client today. And it was gonna be for some like consistent, semi-consistent work doing some real estate photography and video and stuff like that. And I was telling my friend last night,
my friend was over and we were just, you know, chatting and I was telling them about this and they were like...
So do you have a drone? And I was like, no, like that's, as a multi-hyphenate, as a multi-skilled person, there's a lot of things I can do. I can do a lot, like I can do a lot on my own. I've worked in journalism for a while. I worked in local community TV for a while. Like I can be dangerous. And, but I was like, oh, I haven't done that yet. And I was like, it's kind of on my list. Like if I ended up getting...
this client, like I'm gonna have to like figure it out. And my friend was like, I have a drone in my closet. Brand new, never been used.
Heather (06:24)
Okay.
Jess (06:25)
And I was like, okay. And he's like, do you want it?
And I was like, sure, sure.
Heather (06:35)
Hey
Jess (06:37)
So I acquired a drone in the last 20... It's a DJI Mini 2. It's a little bit of... It's an older one. It's not the newest one. But of course I call my dad and he's retired tool engineer who worked in aerospace for a long time. And when I was a kid, I flew model airplanes. this isn't new for me, but I was like...
Heather (06:39)
Wait, what is it? Is it a DJI? Okay.
But it's also
not this.
Jess (07:02)
I got a new
toy. But also, drones are like getting into the drones is and I and some of the projects you and I've worked on, like I've gotten to assist the drone pilots. And I mean, they're flying like the big 50 pound drones. But like I've gotten to kind of assist. So I've learned a lot of the like safety stuff and kind of the, you know, the different things. But. Holy cow.
Heather (07:27)
That's a lot. I've
thought about getting my drone pilot's license. There's a lot involved.
Jess (07:34)
Yeah. Well, and then I'm just thinking about my insurance.
Heather (07:38)
that too.
Jess (07:41)
So I don't know. I don't know TBD with this client, but I.
Heather (07:49)
Wait, so what happened?
Jess (07:52)
I had the interview and it went lovely. I don't know if they're ever gonna listen to this, but I don't know if I'm the type of person they're looking for. I think they're looking for somebody who's gonna be a full employee kind of person. And it made me realize, and I've been kind of a lost person for a while. I mean, I've been slowly going through the woods of figuring out what I like, what I don't like, what I wanna do with my career since having a pivot about a year ago.
And I kind of thought about it after that call today. And I was like, you know, I really like what I'm doing with the companies I'm doing stuff with right now. I like the projects I'm working on. I don't know if I can be the person they want me to be. And so I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how. I.
Heather (08:41)
Once you go freelance, you never go back. I hope everyone knows
this. I say this to people with caution. Once you go freelance, you truly never go back, I think. I mean, maybe in certain ways, but in your heart of hearts. That's it. That's it.
Jess (08:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah. So that was my tea for you. I acquired a drone just accidentally. So.
Heather (09:02)
Wow, I didn't. Wow. So are
you going to pursue that right now or are you going to put that on pause? Are you going to like maybe pursue that? Yeah.
Jess (09:13)
think just like recreationally for now I
don't know like I think I might just kind of see but you know
Heather (09:18)
Yeah.
I think you would be good at it. You'd be very, you need to be very, from what I see with pilots I've worked with, very focused. You have to be very firm. You have to be able to like lock in. ⁓ I don't think, I mean, I thought about it and I wanted to, and I was like, cool, I can do this. And I was like, I can't lock in on a set. would go crazy being like, but what about this thing? You can't, you have to be laser focused.
Jess (09:31)
Yeah.
Heather (09:47)
in, especially being in that type of environment. But that's really cool. I also think what's important about this is knowing when it's not the right job or opportunity for you. And I think as we all become more seasoned in our career, mean, we realize that it has to be an appropriate match. have, you know,
Jess (09:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather (10:15)
talk to many people who are like, want to work for you. Like, do you have any opportunities? I want to have an internship. I want to work in the... Okay, well, what do you do? I'll do anything. ⁓ okay. No, no, no. You know, and you start to realize there's value and understanding, hey, this is me and here's where I fit, you know? And that sometimes is a hard thing to overcome initially when an opportunity that seems really great just isn't the best fit for you. And you have to start making those.
Jess (10:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather (10:45)
making those choices because you can't do everything.
Jess (10:48)
And like my producer brain sitting there and I told the potential client, I was like, I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't know if I'm the person you're looking for. You know? Yeah. Which probably is a huge no-no.
Heather (10:58)
Mm-hmm. You told them that on the call. Mm-hmm. No, think that's...
No, I think you have to be honest, for sure. think...
Jess (11:06)
But you
they, you can't like, I mean, I can do what they want me to do,
and there's lot of reasons why I'm not the right, I might not be the right fit for this. And they deserve to have somebody who is the right fit. And
Heather (11:20)
Totally, and similar
but different. I don't know if you know the story of the original actor, I'm totally blanking on his name, that was cast to play Marty McFly in Back to the Future. So they filmed for five weeks, roughly, with a different actor. And we should look it up because he, I mean, I heard...
Jess (11:32)
No.
jeez.
Heather (11:47)
them talking, you know, interviewed like a docu about this. And he was a great actor. And they said there was nothing wrong with him as an actor. I think Robert Zemeckis, was who was talking about this. He just didn't fit the world and he didn't fit the story we were trying to. Yes, Eric didn't fit the world and like there wasn't.
Jess (12:00)
Okay.
Eric Stolls?
Heather (12:12)
He was a great actor. It wasn't like he wasn't good at the thing or he just wasn't the right ingredient that they needed. And, you know, I think if you're in that position, like this makes me think of that, if you are in that position as like the actor or the creative or whatever on the other end, and you have that inclination that like, I just don't think I'm the right fit for this, to have the strength and the courage and the...
Jess (12:19)
Mm-hmm.
Heather (12:38)
understanding and self-awareness to say that upfront could actually save a lot of, I don't know, heartache and stress later. But it always makes me think of, I mean, something like this of the story. And then, know, Michael J. Fox, like it's undeniable, like he's that character. And so I think a lot of that stories or those types of stories get told with actors because that's where it's best sort of manifested.
Jess (12:54)
Yeah.
Heather (13:05)
But I think that happens with a lot of different creators as well. It's just not talked about as much that has to be the right match. Tonally, sometimes you can't explain it, you know? Yeah. With that.
Jess (13:14)
Yeah.
Well, I think
with that, would like to transition into our listener episode today, which is along the lines of advice because I applied for that and I reached out to this potential client because somebody advised me like, this might be a great opportunity. And I was like, yeah, let's try it. On the opposite of that.
Heather (13:26)
Yes.
Jess (13:39)
which I do think I'm really grateful I was on that call this morning and I learned a lot from it and I'm grateful to connect with those people. On the flip side, we reached out to some folks and because, surprise, here's the raw side of this that we're recording this before the show has aired. So we don't have listeners yet. So we reached out to ⁓ some of our network and said, hey,
What's a piece of advice you were given in your career that ended up being totally wrong for you?
And so we have some responses to that. Heather.
Heather (14:17)
This is wild. I'm
so excited to get into this. really, to be clear for everyone, we, I haven't seen these.
Jess (14:21)
Me too, cause-
I haven't read them either. I've seen like pieces of them. ⁓ And two folks were so sweet. They were like, I'm on set. I'm really busy. I don't want to, can't like, I don't have time to type this down. Can I just say it to you? So I have heard two of them. And I had, I'm sorry guys. used the chat GPTs to ⁓ transcribe it for me because I was running out of time today. But yes. So we have...
Heather (14:27)
We had them pre-vetted for us.
⁓
Okay.
Jess (14:52)
We have some, I hope they'll listen, but we have some network folks who we reached out to and asked them these questions. And Heather, I would love for you to start us off.
A lot of these folks wanted to be anonymous as much as possible. I can tell you what they do. Well, no, their name, like their first name is fine. And I changed the names for the record. I changed the names of the folks that requested their names to be changed. A lot of folks were concerned about NDAs. So, you know, as we as we well know. So, yeah.
Heather (15:07)
Okay, we're not going to say their name. We're not going to say their name.
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes. Okay.
Jess (15:25)
We're gonna
Heather (15:25)
All right.
Jess (15:26)
read what they sent in and their first name. That's gonna be great. Yes. Yes.
Heather (15:28)
And we'll react to it. We'll see. We'll go from here. All right, are we ready? OK,
here's the first one. So in grad school, I was told that stage managing a tour was the best way to go. In LA, theater isn't too huge, and not everyone wants to go to Broadway. So stage managing a touring Broadway show is the next best thing. It's great money, great experience. They made it seem like it was the thing to do.
In grad school, I helped workshop a show that ended up touring. It wasn't long, but it was almost a month in Dallas, Texas, and then Amherst, Massachusetts. I hated it. It didn't help that my director thought the title of stage manager also meant lighting designer, costumer, and overall errand lady. But I hated being away from home and my dog. I hated hotel rooms. My cast was fine and the show was great, but traveling for work isn't the same as traveling.
I went one more time to Chicago with the show, but by then I knew it wasn't for me. And the director was so heinous, I gave up touring completely. I know plenty of stage managers who love it, but it's just not for me.
Jess (16:45)
And that was from Seton. Yeah.
Heather (16:47)
⁓ boy, Seaton. Well,
I'm sure you learned a lot of lessons stage managing that touring Broadway show.
Jess (16:55)
I think it's so good to learn. think there's so much about the arts and media and creative jobs that is traveling. And that's something that I learned this year. I'm, yeah, I'm totally in love with it. I think it's great. But I know that there's a lot of people who, know, if it's not right for you, like knowing what's not right for you is, I think is gonna be a common theme.
Heather (17:06)
Yes.
living out of a suitcase.
Jess (17:23)
in this episode.
Heather (17:25)
I will say as someone, I will say that over time, and I probably sound very jaded, but sometimes it does lose its allure a little bit. Having done it for probably almost 10 years now, traveling for work can take its toll. Especially for me, like on a touring company, which I'm sure, and I've done jobs like this where we're going from.
one end of the country to the other, client, know, we're going to Atlanta and all the way up to New York and, you know, then over to, you know, Texas. And it's like the climate and the changing of all of that and having to live out of your suitcase and be kind of ready for anything, it can take its toll. And it's like fun and cool and it's exciting and we're all
I think very lucky and blessed to have this type of work that we can see and do these things. But it is something I think that's not talked about. That it can, Yeah, and being away from people. Yeah.
Jess (18:26)
It's hard on your body. It's hard on your mental health. You know, it's hard on your relationships. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Well, thank you, Seton, for sending us your story.
Heather (18:39)
Also
on this, think what's interesting is I think you have to do the thing because this is, you know, interesting to me because I've been told we'll get into it, but other things like people go, you know what you should do? You know what you should do? You know what would be really great for you?
Jess (18:55)
And they always, they
always are so excited to tell you what you should do.
Heather (18:59)
yeah,
yeah, and they're just like, yeah, you know what, you should do this. And sometimes you really do have to go do the thing to go, that wasn't for me. And that's fine. But I think people are always very quick to tell us what we should or shouldn't do. And sometimes we just have to make that choice for ourselves.
Jess (19:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
All right, well, I'm going to read the next one. This is from Bobby. A piece of advice I had to learn was wrong for me was be the first to volunteer. It seems like good advice on the surface. It shows eagerness and a willingness to help out. But in exchange for being the first one to raise your hand, you may be giving up the chance to make other connections or do more advantageous activities. I was working on an unpaid internship at a YouTube studio over the summer between college quarters.
It was my first taste of real production life and I was excited to help out. I was often the one to offer to do any tasks thrown out to the intern group. But after offering to go out and pick up lunch a few times, it started to become assumed that I was going to be the one to do it. So by the end of the internship, I was often out of the office in the middle of the day by myself picking up meals from various fast food chains. What I discovered by the end of the program was that while I was out getting lunch,
The other interns were socializing and working on more meaningful tasks with the crew.
They learned how a writer's room operates and how to use the gear. Well, I learned the talent doesn't like beans in their Chipotle burrito bowl. After that, I was more selective with when volunteering. I think about what I want to get out of the experience and how I can be more effective with my time and energy.
That's such a good story.
Heather (20:45)
Wow,
Bobby, this is great. well, there's so much to unpack here. Jess, what are your initial thoughts on this?
Jess (20:49)
You
My initial reaction to this is, wow, because I feel like, and I think Heather, you're also a person that may or may not do this as well, but I feel like I'm that type of person where I'm like, somebody needs help. Like, I'll go do it. I'll go do it right now. Like, let me help. And I'm recovering from that. But what a learning lesson.
Heather (21:16)
Yeah, I have so many emotions about this, namely because I was used to be this person. And like you just still have these tendencies. We're working on it. Similar vein. I've talked about this before, like not sitting down. Like I had somebody told me at some point, I don't know, is it Christopher Nolan or is there some some director that like no one can sit down on his sets and it's this thing? And I don't know. I must have heard this at some point.
Jess (21:43)
Yeah.
Heather (21:45)
And I told myself, if you are going to be the best production assistant, if you are going to be the best, you know, as I moved up the rung, it's like you can't sit down unless you're, you know, in the PO working on your computer or whatever. And in a similar vein, it's like, you know, we're sort of told, well, you have to just do anything that they need. You know, you have to do this. Self-sacrifice is the way to get, you know, results in the end. And it's not. Right.
Jess (22:04)
Right. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Because everybody else wants your job. So you better
sacrifice everything. I mean, like, and that's the mentality I had for a long time.
Heather (22:16)
Right.
Yeah. And it's like, why are you there? mean, I also find too, it's kind of now being in a different role and kind of seeing, I don't know if you have this experience, Jess, but it's almost like annoying when somebody is like, I'll do anything, I'll do everything. It's like, whoa, what? Like that they're not being methodical about.
Jess (22:37)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Heather (22:43)
you know, they're not, don't value themselves and they're not being methodical about the thing. Like, I'll help you with anything or I'll just do anything. It's like, but will you? And, you know, so there's like a respect level. I mean, I do think that when you're an intern, hey, you have to be willing to like kind of jump in and do some things that might not seem like thrilling in order to help out. I mean, I pick up lunch for people all the time now, still as a producer or whatever. ⁓
Jess (22:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather (23:13)
You know, but I think it is knowing what you want to get out of something. You know, like I wish that I would have spent more time at USC, I will say this, making better connections. I had my head down, I had max units, I was focused on a GPA, working three jobs. And I just head down and did the thing and I wish I would have taken a little bit more time.
Jess (23:20)
Yeah.
Heather (23:39)
to actually have the experience. And I think sometimes we can get in that sort of mindset with these things. And you lift your head up at the end and you go, oh, I guess I did that. But what did it gain you? Yeah. Wow.
Jess (23:52)
Yeah, absolutely. I agree.
I agree. Thanks for submitting, Bobby.
Heather (23:59)
Thanks, Bobby. All right, do we want to move on to the next one?
Jess (24:03)
Yeah, let's move on to the next one. Keep it rolling.
Heather (24:05)
Okay, this is a short one, you guys. The
worst piece of career advice I was ever given was to say yes to everything that is offered to you, regardless of the circumstances. It sent me down a road I probably wouldn't have chosen if I didn't feel pressure to say yes, even when it didn't feel like it completely aligned with what I wanted long term. Yeah, let's talk about this. Thanks,
Jess (24:31)
Yeah, and that's from our listener,
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of, again, in the same line of a lot of, you know.
I think there's a couple ways. You know, I think it's, we all start our careers so young oftentimes, or maybe we don't know a lot about them yet if we're doing a career pivot, maybe we're changing careers. And I think especially in this industry, you're encouraged to just say yes to everything. And I know that that works for some people.
You know, there's some folks that are like, yeah, I'm saying yes to this or I'm saying, you know, yes and or or you know, but at the same time I think it's an interesting point that Haley makes of if you say yes to everything Like how are you gonna be able to focus on? What you want long term, maybe it doesn't align long term
Heather (25:10)
Yeah.
Totally.
I think it works when you're trying to figure things out. Like I think when you're, you know, you, to me, if you are in film school or just starting out, you cannot turn your nose up at some indie, you know, film PA job. Like that's not the time. And I think that that gets confused with like, say yes to things that don't serve you.
saying yes to things where you're not being treated appropriately, saying yes to things that don't, you know, I think those lines kind of get blurred. That's not, as people say, yes, it doesn't mean say yes to those things. It just means to be open and try new things. And I think to your point, Jess, you get to a place where it's like, you really have to take a hard look at your goals and say, okay, does this fit this? No.
Jess (26:02)
Yeah.
Does this align with
my mission statement? Does this align with the mission statement I've created for my... Does this align with my strategic plan? Yeah. Yeah.
Heather (26:23)
Yeah. Personal message.
And that's hard because especially
when you're in this, you know, it can feel like if you have the scarcity mindset, which I think this industry can kind of cultivate a little bit, you know, there's a fear of like, but what if I don't, you know, say yes to this? And I will say there's a fine line with that because nobody wants to hear this, but I think there is truth to saying no too many times.
Jess (26:44)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Heather (26:55)
are not gonna, I mean, as a producer,
Jess (26:56)
They stop asking.
Heather (26:57)
like if I ask a freelancer, two, three times, even if like, hey, are you available? They're not available, they go, you know, they take too long to get back, whatever. I just won't reach out to them. I will go to the next person. And then if they're reliable and they're consistent and they get to do a job, why would I reach back out to the first person? And that's like a very like cold thing, but that's what happens.
Jess (27:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, it's
a hard line. One of the folks that I work for, every time they email me and they're like, you available for this job? I take a few moments and I'm like, okay, am I available that day? Okay, is what I have on that day movable? Is it like, cause how do I limit the amount of times I say no for this project? Cause it is a client that I wanna work for.
Heather (27:39)
Mm-hmm.
Jess (27:48)
and it's a client that I, you I know that there are other people that they like can call in. And so, you know, I gotta be careful about my nose, but also gotta be, we have to be careful about our yeses. Yep. Yep. Wow. Thank you, Haley. Okay. We're gonna move on to Laura. Laura said, for me, it was a necessity of having to complete my bachelor's.
Heather (27:54)
Yeah.
Yep, in both ways. It's, it's yeah. ⁓ Thanks, Haley.
Jess (28:17)
And we talk about this a lot, Heather. When I was going to school for my undergrad, I pivoted multiple times.
I considered film school, then pursued a path into public relations, but that didn't feel right for me either. And that feeling of uncertainty along with other extenuating circumstances led me to pause school and start working. That's when I first started getting experience with production and events.
And knowing that I wanted to make my way to Los Angeles eventually brought myself here and made connections the good old fashioned way. Roommates and hinge dates getting me my first LA local jobs in production. I love that. While I'm sure college, especially if I went somewhere local in LA, would have been helpful in some ways, gaining work experience myself and still finding myself in the same career spaces with a little less student debt as others has been very affirming.
especially in a world where entry-level and media can have such daunting requirements.
Heather (29:16)
Bye.
Jess (29:17)
What are your thoughts
Heather (29:18)
I think that the idea of going to school, to higher education, is something that, you know, for a long time, our generation in particular, millennials, it was like, if you don't do this, you are a loser. you... getting your bachelor is the bare minimum. Now, I think a lot of people...
Jess (29:36)
Yeah, you have to go to college.
Heather (29:45)
you know, were forced into this and they didn't need to do that. I know people that went to Brooks, which was a photography, film, art school. ⁓ They closed. That school closed. And I'm sure they, you know, got great education and great, you know, connections there. But at the same time, like, what is that degree worth? Like, why are you doing it? Back to what I had said before.
Jess (29:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Heather (30:13)
You know, I think you have to go in just like you go into a job, just like you go into an internship. When you have to go into school, if you're going to go into a program, knowing what you want to get out of it. What do you want to get out of that experience? ⁓ And you better be very, very clear on that because you're sacrificing a lot to go through a program. ⁓ Right. Is it serving you?
Jess (30:24)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What does that to your toolbox?
I used to, I think I might've shared this before, but I used to just piss off my counselors. I went to community college and then I transferred to CSUN. And like, I used to piss off my counselors because I was privileged enough to be able to try video production in junior high and high school. So I knew some soft skills. I knew some technical skills.
I knew how to edit, I knew how to shoot. And by the time I got to college, I was like, OK, what do I not know? What are these courses that they're offering that I want to learn more about that's going to make me a more well-rounded person? And I just remember my counselors being so irritated because I was like, I want to learn 35-millimeter photography because I want to truly understand what ma—
all the settings in manual are. And I want to take this script writing course because I would like to be a stronger writer. Or I want to take this.
podcasting course, whatever. And I made them fit into the, like I did make them fit into the degree requirements. But I do remember my counselors being like, well, everybody's taking broadcast journalism. Like, why aren't you just, why are you doing general journalism? I'm like, because it says the same thing on the diploma, right? And they're like, well, yeah, but, and I was like, I'm working in radio professionally.
Heather (31:48)
Were you allowed to take those classes or did they tell you no?
Mm-hmm.
Jess (32:17)
Like I'm, I like while I was going to college, I'm, I, you know, I've done video production. Like what are some other skills that I can learn that like, that I'm paying you guys thousands and thousands of dollars to teach me that I didn't learn in my junior high and high school class, or that I didn't learn at my community college. Like what, what can you teach me? And I, I think that Laura has a really valid point of.
Heather (32:35)
Yeah.
Jess (32:45)
You you have to do what works best for you. And I like what you said, Heather, that you have to know what you want to get out of it.
Heather (32:48)
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think that's like the biggest thing, piece of advice. I wish I would have known more clearly what I, because at the time I was like, well, getting my bachelor's, it's just, that's the task. That is the thing. And I mean, but to your point, Jess, in similar vein, I also went to community college. I also, I transferred in to USC. I went in as a political science major, as a political science major for all of two weeks, probably less than that.
⁓ And I just thought, I'm sitting in my European political thought lecture. And I thought, gosh, no. Because I was forcing myself to do, you know, and so I ended up kind of designing school to work for me. ⁓ I pivoted and, you know, enrolled into a major called Narrative Studies, which was a new interdisciplinary major with
Jess (33:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yep.
Heather (33:42)
rooted in the English department, but you could pick concentration. So I picked film and so I'm taking classes in SCA, editing, production, planning, and entertainment contract law. And I'm picking all these things, which was really cool. And so I got to have, build this holistic experience. I think just like you did, Jess, I think if you have that opportunity,
You know, I mean, I even did it like I was working in production at the time. I also was working jobs on campus. You know, I was like any place I can kind of build all these little experiences to make this sort of holistic educational experience. I think if you just go into school and you're like, cool, I'm going to just do this major and do whatever my counselors tell me. And you wait to senior year to get an internship like.
Jess (34:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Heather (34:33)
it's not going to help you, you guys. You're just going to be in debt. you know, that's when you'll have that piece of paper and go, ⁓ well, now I have to start doing the things, you know, doing that, taking ownership earlier on.
Jess (34:42)
Yeah.
And work is experience too. I think it's so valuable. And it's a good way to dip your toes into things. I changed my major five or six times. I wanted to be a portrait photographer. And so I went and got a job at Picture People when they were still around. I don't know if they still are. But I learned a lot of things about the portrait photography industry.
Heather (34:48)
Yeah. yeah.
Jess (35:10)
And then I ended up getting some opportunities to do some full-time work in news. So I kind of went down that path for a little bit. And then that took me to local community television and nonprofit work. And I think you kind of just follow this road. There's no blueprint. We always talk about that. And nothing's linear. And you kind of just keep finding what's interesting to you.
Heather (35:35)
Yeah. It reminds me of like in, in the Wizard of Oz, there's the yellow brick road and that it go, but it goes different ways. Like Dorothy could have gone a different way because that yellow brick, it goes over there and goes, you know, that. There's side quests and then you come back around and yeah, no, I think it's just like, I think this is a bigger theme to just this idea of like, people are waiting for the thing to save them or carry them. They're waiting for their, you know,
Jess (35:44)
Yeah. And there's side quests to the yellow brick road. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Heather (36:03)
degree program to do it, their internship to do it. Yeah, some break there, just somebody's gonna carry them away, some job, some thing. And, you know, I think the sooner you realize that that doesn't exist, you know, I think, I mean, I was there when I was younger in high school, you're like, but if I can just get into the school, if I can just get into this program or get an internship with so-and-so person, ooh, cool, I'm set.
Jess (36:03)
their big break.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather (36:31)
and it's just when you're waiting for somebody else to carry you along, it's just not going to come. You've got to do it yourself.
Jess (36:35)
Yeah.
You gotta make it, you gotta make the stuff. All right, shall we move on to our next?
Heather (36:41)
Make your own path. Should we
keep going? Okay.
When I was younger, I was told to mainly focus on only getting experience. I actually don't feel like I heard a lot about networking, focusing on learning from your peers. Experience is great, but nowadays I've seen so many people get these incredible dream positions based on who they know in any given industry. One of the things I also remember hearing and still hear to this day is that it doesn't matter to make friends where you work. That's bad advice.
Your coworkers don't have to be your best friends, but kindness, courtesy, and friendliness will get you way further than being aggressive and overly competitive.
Show that you care and are there to be a team player. People want to work with people they get along with. And more often than not, they'll recommend someone who's easy to work with over someone who, while having experience, is a bit untrustworthy in the work environment. All in all, your network will open the door for you and your experience will then keep you in the room.
Jess (37:47)
Thank you for Patricia for sending that in. Yeah.
Heather (37:48)
from Patricia.
Wow.
Go off, Jess. Tell us.
Jess (37:54)
Go off. ⁓
I think, again, it's just, so interesting to see this thread that is kind of going through this full episode. We didn't plan this, We didn't plan this thread, but, you know, it is who you know. It's so much who you know. I think every job I've ever gotten, and I know I have a lot of friends that say the same thing. Every job that I've ever gotten is because of somebody that I know, somebody that I met.
Heather (38:24)
Sure.
Jess (38:26)
And I think when we were us millennials back in the day, when we were in school, it was like, no, you go get that degree and you'll make it. You'll be successful. And it doesn't necessarily, and you know, it's great. It's fantastic. But I think Patricia is onto something and also being a person that's pleasant to work with.
Heather (38:55)
Oh, this is not talked about enough. This is not talked about. Look, I know some great individuals who are really good at what they do. And I've been requested, you know, from different people, whether it's a client or, you know, a director or someone like that. They're like, gosh, really love so and so. Their work is so great, but
man, are they terrible to work with on set. They're grumpy. They get everybody in their spiral. They're not kind and courteous. they will go, they're so good. But they will overlook some things with an individual, maybe not being 1,000 % to the technical level of someone else.
Jess (39:32)
Mm-hmm.
Heather (39:48)
if they are a great person to work with and a team player. And more and more, as production changes in scope and style and all of that, we're working on projects that are a little more scrappy, more frequently. And I think that's going to continue. It's great, indie film, it's great, but things are changing and you better be a good person to work with in addition to being good at what you do. It's just...
Jess (39:51)
Yeah.
Heather (40:14)
It's imper-
Jess (40:17)
Period. End of sentence. There.
Heather (40:21)
We have a sign in our office that says Nice Kids Club. Nice Kids Only.
Jess (40:23)
Yeah, no,
I, every time I walk into your office, I think about that and I think about, to get raw again, I think about, I've had role models where they're grumpy and mean and they yell. And I know early in my career, and I'm sorry for everybody that was around me in my early career, but I remember replicating that. I remembered mirroring that and being like,
Heather (40:30)
needed.
you thought
that you had to be like that in order to be. Yeah.
Jess (40:52)
And I thought I had to be like that. I thought that's
how a leader is. That's how I get somewhere in this industry by being a bitch and being crabby and raising my voice. And nobody wants to work with that. I've done a lot of therapy in self-work since then, but I think it's really, you have these role models and also being a person that's
Heather (41:03)
Yeah.
now.
Well, I mean, yeah.
Jess (41:20)
courageous enough to say this is not okay. Like this is not okay in on on this set in in on in my studio in in in on this team in you know like it's hard because I think tell me a story tell me a story.
Heather (41:37)
Let me tell you a story. Let me tell you a story. I have had,
this was earlier in my career when I was the girl driving around. was like, I'm the production coordinator. I'll do anything for anyone. We had a crew member, a little bit older, a more seasoned crew member. Apparently he didn't want lettuce on his sandwich. Now, sometimes when you're on certain projects, you're ordering food for a lot of different people.
Jess (41:48)
You
Heather (42:07)
things can get a little mixed up. No matter how perfect you make your spreadsheet, no matter how perfect, okay, sometimes things happen. And, you know, they can be minor, but I bring this gentleman his sandwich. We're on on location shoot, and I get it. Everybody's tired. There's a lot going on, but apparently they put lettuce on his sandwich and he did not want lettuce.
Jess (42:13)
Yeah.
It wasn't like he had an allergy or anything.
Heather (42:32)
Right,
no, that would be a different situation. And you know, that happens sometimes. And then someone brings it to me and like, hey, that has happened. We solve this issue. I get them their own thing. Like we handle it, right? So this person could probably be my father at the time. He comes up to me and he's like, hey, Heather, he opens his sandwich up. He picks up the lettuce and he looks at me he's like, ew, gross, disgusting.
Jess (42:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather (42:59)
I said, no lettuce. And he throws the lettuce at my feet. He slapped, like he just smacks it on the pavement. And he was like, I said, no lettuce. And he walked away. And it's like, these are the things to your point of like not to, at the time I just was like, so apologetic. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I messed up. my God. Like I'm so sorry. My job is to keep the crew happy and I get the crew happy and all this stuff.
Jess (43:00)
Stop it.
Stop it.
Stop it.
Stop it.
Heather (43:29)
But now, to your point, I mean, you know, I was not a senior individual on that set. And now if I saw that kind of behavior from one of my crew members to another one of my crew members, like that shit would get shut
Look, I've, there's
happen on sets, like a pressure cooker, stuff happens, you get upset, you you apologize or whatever. But like, these are the kinds of things where, you know, I think we now are in a place as we, this new sort of generation is becoming leaders in all these different aspects. We have to set the tone. Because if you are a producer or a director,
Jess (43:46)
Ugh.
Yeah.
It's not okay.
Yeah.
Heather (44:07)
you know, a DP, like whoever is a department head or a lead on set, and you make sure that this type of tone is not even entered into an existence where this type of behavior is the outlier, and you're gonna look really stupid if you act like this, versus having a set that's hostile or a place where this kind of behavior fits in. So I think, yeah, it's up to us to...
Jess (44:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Heather (44:37)
to, by our behavior, not allow these types of things to take place so frequently. That's a story. Yes. All right.
Jess (44:44)
Yeah. Hashtag nicekidsonly.
All right, our
next one is from Carlos. And he says, this wasn't specifically bad advice, but at my previous job, I kept pushing for a promotion and was given various ladders to climb towards said promotion. But as Lincoln Park once said, in the end, it didn't even matter. I love that. Thank you so much, Carlos. Sometimes we're told that we got to suck it up and brave whatever our employer throws at us. So we get rewarded for it one day.
but times have changed. And with everything being so chaotic, I don't think we can rely on that notion anymore. Do what's best for you and the company, but also look out for yourself as things unfold. And always put yourself first in terms of health and career progression, because everyone out there is looking out for themselves, including your employer. That's so real, Carlos.
Heather (45:42)
Well,
Carlos,
Jess (45:43)
It's so real.
That's just, that's so real. I mean, that sums up a lot of what we've been talking about.
Heather (45:50)
Yeah, I mean.
It truly does. I, you know, I think Emily in Paris was filming fairly recently over the summer. And I believe quite terribly, their first AD ⁓ had a heart attack on set. He passed there. And, you know, they were filming the next day. So, yeah, this was...
Jess (46:11)
Oh my god, I didn't see this.
Heather (46:16)
over the summer, fairly recently. They're in Europe filming in their first AD and I... Yeah. And I'm sure all of us have seen people in stressful positions like a first AD producer who, you know, are just carrying the weight of the role or the production on their back and it's, you know, not necessary. Like you...
Jess (46:21)
That's awful.
Heather (46:42)
People will try to get you to do that, of course. But you need to always be putting yourself first. And like Carlos says, doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to look out for the company. You're not care about your job. That's not what that means at all. But ultimately, they're going to just... I think John Mayer says, like, I'm going to find another you. So it's like they will. And that's really terrible to...
Jess (47:07)
I had somebody who told me everyone's replaceable.
Heather (47:08)
except but.
Yes, ma'am.
Jess (47:17)
And
it doesn't matter if you... And this person has a very successful career and they partially got their job because somebody had a health emergency on set. And that person, I don't know what their, like if, you know, what the outcome was, but...
This person was kind of like next in line. The person who told me the story was kind of like next in line. And so when the person with the health emergency was unable to do the job, the production's like, all right, who's next? So yeah, Carlos is right. I think you have to take care of your health, whether it's your physical, mental, emotional, you have to take care of your health and know that it is a job. And in production,
Heather (48:04)
again.
Jess (48:08)
It's production. It's not... We're not saving lives. We're not... I mean, we are helping people. But in some ways. But... You're like, ahhhh! Yeah.
Heather (48:10)
I know everyone acts like we're like doing heart transplants or something. I don't know.
I will say it feels easy to get into that. For me, like I've been in
situations where like, my god, we have to go. And then like, whoa, feels really easy to get wrapped up in that. And so that's another thing with tone. Like if you're able to stay grounded, there are going to be times and that's okay. don't, you know, we're all going to just like boil over and that's fine. But just knowing like if you're not in that.
Jess (48:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Heather (48:42)
place right now, like how can you help others and like be a rock for others and be grounded and help support everyone else because I do think that energy like feeds, you know, and so it's important for us to support one another in that way.
Jess (48:58)
Yeah.
Heather (48:59)
our next one. This person says,
I was often told to wait until I had more experience, to study more or to prepare longer before jumping in. And yes, that can be valid, but I've found I've been most successful by just saying yes, even if I wasn't fully prepared. This isn't an industry where you can slowly climb a checklist. You have to dive in, sometimes mess up, and then learn from it. If I had waited until I felt ready, I'd probably still be living in another state. Instead, I trusted myself, jumped in unprepared, and that's when the best opportunities came.
And on a funny note, in entertainment, especially as a performer, people often tell you to lie on your resume about your skills. Everyone does it. They'll say they can ice skate, play an instrument, ride a horse, whatever. The idea is that you just figure it out later. But that doesn't always work. Sometimes, if you say you can ice skate, they will not give you practice. And it'll be very obvious on the day that you cannot. Not speaking from personal experience, of course. So while it's not necessarily the worst advice, it can definitely come back to bite you.
Jess (50:00)
I'd never heard of that before.
Heather (50:02)
What, just say yes? Lie on.
Jess (50:04)
Like, no, just
say that you have some extra skills. But I'm a pathological... Say that again?
Heather (50:08)
actors try to do this all the time.
Actors try to do this all the time. And we can unpack it here. It's an actor thing. It's an actor thing. And you guys don't fricking do it. You're going to fall. You're going to hurt yourself. Like, I think in the state of there's a, this is to me, there's a fine line here. And it's like, okay, sometimes, you know, you're like, I don't feel ready.
Jess (50:16)
See, I had never heard of that.
Heather (50:36)
There's a difference between like, don't feel ready. I don't know if I'm worthy. Like having some of that doubt. Imposter syndrome versus like, I can do archery on a horse, you know, bareback riding down a mountain. If you have never like ridden a horse before in your life, don't say that you can do that, you guys. It's ridiculous. But at the same time, like,
Jess (50:42)
Imposter Syndrome.
Heather (51:02)
Yes, also just saying yes, saying, there's someone who shall not be named. He's producer in Newman School. And him and I always would kind of clash, because I'm the kind of person who does have some imposter syndrome, and I want to plan everything. And I'd say, no. And he, even now, or up till the time he was getting all his jobs, because he would say, yeah, I can do that for you. I do that all the time. He'd never done that before.
And the night before, he's like figuring it out. And he's just like, he's never done that, but he told the client, yeah, I can do that. It's no problem. Now, and so that was like something where, but at the same time, I wish I had a little bit more of his, I don't know, confidence? Delusion?
Jess (51:36)
No.
I'm such a pathological
truth teller, like to my detriment. And I just, don't know. I can't even like, I can't even phrase things in a way. Like, I mean, like I can't, like I can be like, this is great. Like we're great, it's great. But you see it in my eyes. I don't, I couldn't be like, yeah. I mean, was telling you, I told the client that from the beginning of this episode, I was like,
Heather (52:07)
I think there's a difference though.
Jess (52:16)
I acquired a drone. Do I know how to fly it? I'm working on it. Well, thank you, Vera, for sending that in. And we were last but not least, this is from Jay. And Jay says, in terms of career advice that turned out wrong, I grew up in a culture where we deeply respect our elders. So I took advice from the OGs in stunts very seriously.
Heather (52:20)
We have acquired a drone.
wow, thanks Farah.
Jess (52:42)
One piece I heard was, don't call yourself a stunt coordinator unless you've been in the business for 10 years. I get the sentiment, you need experience to be safe and responsible. But looking back, I wish I had started coordinating smaller fights and stunts after four or five years. That experience would have made me a better performer and improved my communication and understanding of how sets work, not just my physical skills. Another piece of advice I got early on was, don't learn acting.
Some older school stunt people said taking acting classes would hurt my career. That stunts and acting were separate lanes, but I always thought differently, especially since I studied theater in college. A few years later, the director for John Wick said something that stuck with me. Stunt performers are still actors. We're just actors who know how to fight. That made so much sense, and you can have the best fight skills, but if your face doesn't have the emotion, it won't work on screen.
Now the industry is shifting and we're seeing more stunt actors or action actors who can deliver lines and perform stunts. I think that's the future and it's why I believe the old advice to avoid acting was wrong. I'm not an actor, so can you comment on this Heather? You are...
Heather (53:52)
You just, you know I got a comment. Of course I have a comment about everything. Wow, okay. Okay, so this is really interesting because I feel that there are a lot of these myths and specifically people plague on actors because I have this thing that I call actor brain and maybe it applies to.
Jess (53:55)
Yeah, I was just teeing you up. was teeing you up.
She has a really
great series that she does called Actor Brain. It's fantastic if you haven't seen it, you should.
Heather (54:18)
Skits.
Um,
but it comes from the idea of, like, I feel that sometimes actors or performers or any of us artists, and I think, I used to think it was just actors, but I think it translates to all different creatives. Um, sometimes we're kind of stupid when it comes to this stuff. And even if it, if it was somebody else, it would make sense. If it was a different industry or a different scenario, it would make a lot of sense. But when it's us, we like.
really think stupid stuff. like, oh, well, someone told me that, I shouldn't do that. And then if you told someone else, like, oh, get as much experience as you can, have as many skills as you can, be as diverse in your skill set as possible, that would make a lot of sense. But sometimes I think we get a little stupid, call it, a little dumb with actor brain, which, you know, and you're just.
you believe these things that aren't true because you're just unable to use logic in the moment. I think that, you know, just like a dancer or just like anything else using your body is stunt performance. I mean, you're acting through the physicality of your body. And so to understand that, just like I think a director should take an acting class so that you can better pick up...
Jess (55:35)
Yeah.
Heather (55:44)
and work with your fellow performers. But I think, yeah, there's all these stupid, that's what I say, there are these stupid rules that they tell all of us that are just, don't listen to them, you guys. Just use your head and just do what you think makes the most sense, which in this case would have been, yeah, and break them. Yeah, that's what I think. Sorry, I went off on a rant there, you guys. Because I feel so passionate about this. Because they tell these actors, these,
Jess (56:00)
learn the rules, and then break them.
Girl, go off. Yeah.
Heather (56:13)
You know, and to me, stunts is very much, it's in a performer category. You're working alongside, you know, first team and I mean, it's very much that. And so I could see that somebody would say, this is how you have, you know, same thing like I am sometimes, but everybody knows now, hesitant to, you know, be like, I'm a producer and an actor, or I'm a producer and a director.
Jess (56:25)
Yeah.
Heather (56:37)
I don't know if you feel this just too, where it's like, I used to hide certain parts of, was like, I'm only this right now because I thought, nobody's gonna take me seriously as a producer if I say I'm an actor too, you know?
Jess (56:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I think again, just the culture is so, it's hard for people to understand what a multi hyphenate is. And I think so many of us are multi hyphenates and we're kind of taking that phrase and really embracing it now. And I think that's, it's great.
Heather (57:01)
Yes.
exciting.
Jess (57:13)
All right. Well, that's the show for today. Thank you for listening to our listeners episode. yeah, thanks for sending in all these fantastic pieces of maybe not great. I don't want to say bad advice, like advice about bad advice. Advice about advice. Thank you.
Heather (57:19)
Thanks for joining us.
We got the good advice. Yes. I love this. This is Jess's
idea. And I think it's fantastic. And I think it needs to continue.
Jess (57:38)
We need to do more. So
send us in some ideas that you want us to talk about. Send us in, we'll come up with some more listener episodes. Actually, I have another listener episode that I want you guys to send us stuff about.
I want you to send us stuff about what's a time you had to get scrappy to make a project happen. What workaround hack or unexpected resource saved the day? We'll post it on our socials. But I do I want. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, I think I feel like you and I are both very scrappy people and ⁓ and very resourceful people. And I'm proud of that. And so I think, yeah, we need to hear from you guys.
Heather (58:00)
Ta-da!
⁓ I got a story about this one.
No.
Jess (58:26)
So send us your stories and we'll maybe read them and we'll react to them for sure. So, all right, that's it for the show. But before we switch back, we wanna remind you.
Heather (58:26)
Let us know.
This is going to be interesting. All right, awesome.
Subscribe to the pod, follow us on social and get on our mailing list. All very important things and all things that are super easy, fun and you can do to help support switching to.
Heather (58:55)
Thanks for listening to Switching Two, hosted and edited by Heather Kate Duncan and Jess Boyer. Original music by Topflow courtesy of the Pixabay Royalty Free Music Library, recorded on location in Los Angeles, California. Follow us on social at SwitchingTwoPod. Show notes and transcript can be found at SwitchingTwoPod.com.
